EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Ever wonder about the origins of the ninja or what it was like growing up in a video rental store in small town Ontario? Aram is joined by Grayson Lee in this episode to discuss the legacy of martial arts in cinema, Ninja Turtles merch, empowerment through orientalization, and terrible films that are also very good. Follow Grayson on Instagram @grime_ninja.
For a list of the films mentioned in this episode, check out our Letterboxd list.
GUEST BIO
Grayson is a Ph.D student in the Faculty of Information at the University of Toronto. He researches Korean webtoons, the digital culture industry, and transnational culture, utilizing an interdisciplinary approach to ask how people are imagining alternative realities within/without capitalism. Grayson is also a co-founder of giant doma, where he produces podcasts, makes digital collage art, and fulfills various other creative impulses. The Tornado kick is his signature kick.
This episode uses or mentions the following multimedia samples and sources:
- “Say Good Night”, Joakim Karud
- “Morpho Diana”, Rachel Collier
- Jack Vs the Ninja
- Ninja Assasin – Raizo Saves Miko
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Please note below transcription was made using speech recognition software, and as such may contain inaccuracies, misspellings, or errors.
Aram
Hi, welcome to Backstory podcast from the Toronto Reel Asian International Film Festival. We have something a little bit different today. We are in the midst of programming hell as we prep for the 25th edition of the Toronto Reel Asian International Film Festival in November and we have a special guest. We have Grayson Lee: Backstory fan, Backstory friend of the show, and sometimes Backstory Foe, to join us. But we love Grayson, he has wonderful takes for us and we’re going to talk about the larger world of martial arts movies and what that kind of means I guess. So welcome to Backstory. It’s nice to have you here.
Grayson
I think in my wildest dreams, I like imagined being invited to talk about this subject specifically as a diasporic Asian person, and also a huge martial arts movie fan. Like, my relationship to martial arts movies was like ever since I was little like VHS, DVDs, whatever. I grew up in like a convenience store that also had a Video 99, which is like this basically independent video rental business that like my parents were doing.
Aram
Where was the store?
Grayson
Oh God it was in Bridgenorth, Ontario, it’s cottage country, it’s like outside of Peterborough. Super small population and so like everybody came to our shop to rent a movie because there’s like nothing else like close by.
Aram
The world was your oyster and you could watch whatever movie you wanted.
Grayson
The world was my oyster as in like, I was like trapped in like a tiny shell and all I had was like films. Like walls and walls of like DVDs and VHS though right? I was like working at my parents store since was like 14 wherever and all I do all day is just like watch movies on this like tiny little like CRT.
Aram
Okay, so what were some of the movies that caught your fancy?
Grayson
I got started on like Bruce Lee films when I was like five. And then like the Jackie Chan canon and Golden Harvest. And then Shaw brothers I got into when I was in high school, after like, getting into like Wu Tang Clan.
Aram
Yeah. Of course.
Grayson
Like you come into Golden Harvest, naturally, and then you like start watching Shaw Brothers because you find out about RZA.
Aram
Yeah.
Grayson
So I’ve watched like, a lot and it was definitely not because of my age and moreso just like my entry points through like access and like different cultural sort of, like, entry points as well.
Aram
Was that something that you were drawn to that because it was like, I’m guessing because of all those kind of movie covers that are on the shelf, like the martial arts ones were likely the only ones that had Asian shit on it.
Grayson
Absolutely, right away. Yeah, the first thing you get to see is Asian leads and Asian male leads at that, right, is like, kung fu movies, martial arts movies. It’s just like this really kind of cool form of representation. It was the time where like, the Asian male was like a cool character, but in like, an interesting way. I mean, there’s a lot of problems with like, gender dynamics around that, and also like this weird kind of caricaturizing that comes out. But that being said, when you can like just kind of enjoy the kitsch, it’s like, super great. It’s super enjoyable. When you’re young, too, it was like, super fun. I think though, like, it was mostly like the starting point of like, watching Bruce Lee movies with my dad. That was like a really nice entry point into like, okay, here you go, now you’re gonna watch the best fighter who ever lived.
Aram
Yeah, yeah.
Grayson
And you’re like five and you’re like, Oh my God, he’s like some kind of like, God. He’s like this, like, amazing ripped Asian guy who just like kills the white champion of karate.
Aram
I mean, it’s, it’s interesting that, you know, you can draw this line from, a 70s Bruce Lee movie to Shang Chi, you know, that this kind of iconography endures so much. There’s plenty of think pieces and interviews talking about that, that kind of tenuous relationship between that. It’s like, oh you know, we wanna be more than that, but it’s also like “Yeah, but it’s cool!” right? So I guess it’s just interesting to see it, that Shang Chi is this big movie that’s come out, it’s done really well at the box office and it’s essentially a martial arts movie. And there’s a little bit of, I guess, lamenting, “Oh can we not be more than that?” right.
Grayson
Yeah but also — God it’s such a battle even to have that, you know what I mean? I often get really fed up with the representation question. Like how desperate we always are to like be seen or whatever right. But then also it’s like such a relevant question because it’s still a problem today right like these little these like battles that seem frivolous are still going on because they haven’t actually been won yet in a lot of ways right? Yeah, I can like be frustrated with them within the community for like these same kind of like questions about Orientalism and like representation what it means why do we care. But at the same time, we also haven’t moved very far in them at all. These are like old problems but they’re not like done with problems right?
Aram
I mean it’s also one of those things is to that that like depending on your entry point and where you are in terms of your kind of your own history or your own catalogue of watching films and seeing more and more representation right? Whether on on screen or lived or anything like that it’s kind of like then within the community sometimes you want to feel like you’re beyond it but at the same time these kind of more entry point films are still meaningful and it is because like you’re saying these are these are old problems but not gone problems right.
Grayson
You brought up this point about like how we got from, you know, Bruce Lee, all the way up to Shang Chi. And I think there is like something like an interesting sort of overview of a story of what it means like at least within film and cinema to get to this point. And I think like a lot of people kind of tend to, like dismiss pop culture a lot of times. But for me, I mean, like, I’ve been a pop culture researcher for a long time. So of course, it’s relevant to me, but I think just like in general for film, and like cinema and understanding these kinds of things, media is like an important thing and has a lot to do with politics. It’s really important to acknowledge how important martial arts was towards the creation of sort of action cinematography.
Aram
Mhmm.
Grayson
And then if start with like, Bruce Lee, well, we have to remember before Bruce Lee, people were just like, basically doing cowboy punching each other, right? That was like fight scenes, right? Like, like the John Wayne, they’d go in and he’d like, do this big wind up and punch the guy once and go down. And that’s like the end of your action sequence. Or it was like theater style, like sword fighting, whatever. And then Bruce Lee comes out in the Green Hornet, and he brings out like, Kung Fu, and everybody’s like, “What is going on?” And then he like has to work really hard to get any sort of access to filmmaking here, right? It was so hard for him to become a star. I mean, starting with like Bruce Lee, you then have this trajectory of like, when Bruce Lee gets big and then suddenly disappears it becomes this big vacuous space where everybody’s just doing all kinds of weird stuff with like action, martial arts, and integrating and incorporating it into filmmaking. And it’s kind of really amazing to see specifically like outside of Asia what gets big right and what happens. A lot happens also in Asia and then what the West kind of imports really affects the way pop culture kind of goes.
Aram
Mhm.
Grayson
So like you started with Bruce Lee and it’s like all this like whoa this guy’s like super fast. Weird stuff that nobody’s seen before with like kicks and all these things. And then like course with Bruce Lee we’re in the 70s, and then post-Bruce is like the 80s and in the 80s you start to see like the rise of like the next generation after that right, with Jackie Chan. And from there becomes like action. Right Jackie Chan starts off with like Kung Fu flicks. And Kung Fu flicks is a very particular genre of martial arts films. Like martial arts are like super broad, right? You’ve got like Wuxia. You get Jackie Chan learning martial arts Drunken Master style. And then from there he kind of switches later into like Police Story era. And it’s like less about like learning Kung Fu, learning martial arts and more about just like crazy like stunt choreography, action sequences, like explosions, special effects, all this kind of stuff. And then you get a trajectory of like later on, that becoming much more integrated into a lot of Hollywood.
Aram
Yeah, totally.
Grayson
You can see a direct link between like Police Story style choreography, and action, cinematography, and Hollywood like even like five years later.
Aram
Or even the trend of doing your own stunts, quote, unquote, right. The Tom Cruise Mission Impossible, like “I’m gonna do whatever it takes, I may kill myself.” I mean, that is definitely drawn from Jackie Chan, who also drew from, you know, kind of, Buster Keaton? Yeah, yeah. So that was kind of like these circular circular things, right? I mean, you definitely have like the 70s Kung Fu movies. You got the 80s. I was kind of interested in, I mean, because this is when I grew up, is that the kind of the, the ninjas movies of the 80s. Because I think like felt very much like tied to the kind of geopolitics of the time, you know. There’s this kind of fascination with Japan, but also like, you know, is this kind of, like stand in for, “But we don’t know what is entirely happening?” you know.
Grayson
Right.
Aram
Those movies were also really co-opted, you know, you had your American ninjas or you know, you ended up having your Ninja Turtles. I mean, I have a whole thing about like, how odd it’s become that ninjas are Legos and characters and in kids board books now. I mean, I have to say that my my exposure to it is much more in the co-optation of you know, well, Ninja Turtles. So do you think Ninja Turtles ruined ninjas?
Grayson
No, no, no, no. Oh, my God, Ninja Turtles are so good. Ninja Turtles is like one of the best translations of like a cultural trope that you could get.
Aram
Okay. What do you mean?
Grayson
Let’s see here. I think the reason why Ninja Turtles succeeded so well, is because nothing about it felt like a cheap imitation of like something that’s authentically Japanese, right? I don’t think anyone looking at the Ninja Turtles thought like this is a crappy knockoff of an Asian cultural point, like everything about the Ninja Turtles is super American. You don’t get any sort of icky feelings of Orientalism when you look at the Ninja Turtles, because it’s the most American thing you could possibly imagine. Right? Like they’re, they’re these mutant turtles that come out of the New York sewer. And they love pizza. Yeah. And they’re Italian because they’re like, named after like, Italian artists, right? Like it’s, it’s just this weird, really, really interesting moment in pop culture that came out of just like, people just really messed up stuff in translating stuff that they thought would be like, would appeal to kids. It works. So well. It appealed to me.
Aram
And they definitely kind of kid-ified it from the earlier comics, which were a little bit darker, right? Not grisly, but darker. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I was so interested in that ninjas stuff, because it’s, it’s so obviously, like coded Asian, even to me, you know, playing with Ninja Turtles in the 80s or whatever. It is kind of back to this point of like, martial arts being a quote unquote, ours, you know. It was like, one of the okay things that you could lay some cultural stake on, you know, in North America, and it was still, you know, still okay. Right. Like even even but, you know, like, and not just to talk about the past, but even food wasn’t that back then. You know, like it is like it is now.
Grayson
I’d say the interesting thing about martial arts is there’s like a weird relationship to Orientalism that martial arts have had since they came to the West right? The way that like martial arts entered America was this interesting, weird thing about like secretive hidden techniques about like how to kill a man with your thumb or something like a death touch. Like there’s this weird kind of like mystery around it. And this idea of like, mystical kind of like Eastern wisdom killing techniques, right, hat come from like, faraway land right? And so that’s like textbook 101 Orientalism. What gave martial arts its popularity and like its big rise was actually the way that the West was actually positioning itself in relationship to Asia at the time, right. A lot of Japan was like heavily Orientalized after World War Two. And then that like continues on for like a long time.
Aram
Mhm
Grayson
I mean there’s like an entire era where people that learn martial arts first off weren’t considered weird but they were absolutely really weird people right? And what I mean by that is, so I worked in a martial arts and fitness like retail shop for a few years and always there’s like this one type of customer that will come in and you can tell right away that they were somebody that trained in that era, right? If you do martial arts right now you kind of are treating it more like a sport it might as well just be like if you’re doing Jiu Jitsu, it’s basically like you’re doing wrestling or boxing or like I don’t know like basketball, it’s just like a sport that you like practice and train in. But if you’re doing martial arts in the 80s you weren’t like just like doing a like a physical activity a few times a week, you’re like learning a secret dark arts right?
Aram
Like you were learning the way.
Grayson
The customers wold come in and be like “I learned from shifu blah blah from this time” or like, “I have a third degree black belt in ninjutsu, I can tell you’ve trained, who’s your master?” like, you know, it’s this weird kind of thing where they actually are empowering the martial art through Orientalism, and then co-opting that empowerment, orientalizing themselves or giving themselves the ability to take on this kind of like mysticism by saying, like, I learned from this Asian person, or I have a relationship to this specific Asian style. Which was just a really weird time. And it’s really reflected in the movies, too right? Like you when you talk about ninja films from that era, the ones that came in especially to like North America, were all films that were like really, like, weirdly kitsch. Or even the kung fu films, it was like The Flying Guillotine. Right? It was like this magical weapon that the kung fu artists could like, throw onto someone’s head to decapitate them.
Aram
Which is, which is some technology and some skill to get it onto somebody’s head. But do you have some movies that are your favorite or ones that you wanted to talk about specifically?
Grayson
Yeah, okay, let’s get back to film. I actually do think though ninjas as a trope, though, are so are so cool. Especially if we think about like what I was talking about earlier about, like, showing and depicting and seeing things that are supposed to be not seen, right. The whole cool thing about a ninja is that they’re like a silent deadly assassin. You don’t even know it. And then like the ninja kills you or whatever. So I’ve got like two clips that actually that I think, portray and interacted with this idea of showing and seeing and not seeing really, really well and this idea of like, shadows, hiding light, dark. The first one I wanted I wanted you to see was actually like from this show called Samurai Jack.
Aram
I’ve heard of it. I have not watched it.
Grayson
So it’s by, Tartakovsky? It’s like, you know, it’s one of those names. It’s the guy that did Dexter’s lab. And he did this show about a samurai that gets like, transported to the future. Anyways, in this episode, it’s called “Jack versus the Ninja”. So Samurai Jack fights this android Ninja, basically, and this is one clip. I want to show this just a couple minutes. Okay, it’s jack versus the ninja.
Aram
Okay, Jen, roll the clip. Just kidding.
Grayson
Okay, I need you to tell me what’s happening in the clip.
Aram
Oh, they’re fighting in black and white. It’s just like — like, the samurai disappeared into the light. And they’re fighting with swords now. And the sun is going down. And the sun is changing, so it’s revealed… the samurai?
Grayson
Jen, did you watch that too? What do you think?
Jen
I loved the silhouettes. I was like, I didn’t know how to appreciate the animation style as a kid. I was too young. I was just like, that’s a cool action show. But like there’s so much going on there.
Grayson
I recently rewatched it. And I’m totally gushing about this show all over again. To me this was actually, probably one of the most successful invocations of this idea of like showing and not showing and like how to depict ninjas. And it like strips it down so well right? Only a couple colours are used. Samurai Jack basically puts on these white robes and then he’s suddenly invisible whenever there’s like white. So in the light he’s unseen and the shinobi, the ninja robot — of course he has to be a robot because it was aimed at being PG and so they can’t actually show the samurai chopping up people so he has to chop up robots and then you get the PG rating.
Aram
Whatever it takes.
Grayson
So the ninja robot is donning the black robes, the typical costume of the ninja right, and then he’s invisible whenever it’s black, and he’s only shown in those like strips of white that come up on the screen. And then vice versa for Samurai Jack. And it’s like a wonderful beautiful sort of interaction that happens between this duality of the samurai who’s in the light and the shinobi who’s in the dark and when they’re seen and not seen and how you get the two to interact with fight right. It’s beautiful. It’s such a clean crisp simple execution of this idea right of like fighting while being seen or not seen and that’s like one of the best ways to do it right if you just like make it really simple and really hone in on what is cool about this thing.
Aram
Mhm
Grayson
I have like another thing, the other clip is like the same idea of how to show something that’s like not easy to see or not supposed to be seen, right, the Ninja and it’s actually a scene from Ninja Assassin the film featuring Rain.
Aram
Yes. Love rain.
Grayson
I mean he’s, Rain is also like an entire episode topic on his own and how he’s had like a weird recent resurgence in Korean pop culture. But yeah, so the second clip is from Ninja Assassin.
Aram
Okay. Jen roll the clip.
Grayson
So basically she’s like, given this letter that shows like she’s being like threatened or being like hunted now by the ninjas. They got to come and assassinate her. And the lights have been cut out in her apartment. It’s all dark.
Aram
Ooh. Well, full disclosure. This was one of the films that inspired us to talk about martial arts movies in the first place. I have not seen this film I have always wanted to see it. I remember I was at a Cineplex walking by the theater where this movie Ninja Assassin was showing. And you know when through the door you can just see like lights. And it was just like white, dark red, red, red, red, red, red blood red. I was like, oh I should go watch that movie.
Grayson
So Ninja Assassin, released in 2009, produced by the Wachowskis, director was James McTeigue. And mostly notably, like starring Rain. This was a terrible film. But also so good. And I got into a really bad thing because like, my coworker at the time, asked me like, I just got to see it as soon as it came out. And I came back. And they’re like, oh, Was it good? I really want to see itbecause I’m a big Rain fan. And I was like, I just told them I loved it. I love that film so much. And they went and saw it and they just never talked to me.
Aram
You know, Grayson, he has the worst taste.
Grayson
Exactly what happened. Never asked me for another movie recommendation ever again. They didn’t talk to me about anything other than work ever again. I think they were just really disappointed. But anyways, Ninja Assassin — really really really good film for invoking just like a lot of weird ninja tropes, but not good actual storytelling at all. This scene that I showed you right now is one of the more interesting things that actually happens in the film from like a cinema analysis kind of thing, right. And it’s a kind of fun thing where you don’t really see what’s going on there’s a lot of shakey cam. This is actually like one of the cardinal sin of like, more modern sort of action right is like when you’ve got people that are really bad at doing action scenes or aren’t very good at martial arts or aren’t good at choreography —
Aram
Liam Neeson!
Grayson
Yeha you had lots of fast cuts lots of shakey cam. Yeah Liam Neeson. What was it?
Aram
The Taken franchise.
Grayson
Yeah. So here in my opinion, the shakey cam works well because you can’t see what’s going on at all. You have no idea what’s happening. It’s dark and then you kind of just get these like little glimpses of like these ninjas fighting through one of the characters like holding up a flashlight right. And it’ll occasionally like see like that there’s like two ninjas waiting like these costumes like fighting each other. And that’s kind of cool that’s a really cool way to like show something like ninjas as opposed to just like having them wear black and like completely brightly lit scene fighting out because then it completely defeats the purpose of why are they even pretending to be hidden at all.
Aram
Well I think these are really great clips that you’ve shown because it allows for a kind of visual aesthetic that can be flexed you know and that that is part of the mystique of the characters. Correct me if I’m wrong, but like Ninja Assassin like you said was what 2008? 2009?
Grayson
2009, yep.
Aram
I mean, what mainstream things has there been with ninjas? I mean of course there was Snake Eye this summer which I don’t think either of us have seen but that was also something I wanted to check out but I mean, but I mean, there’s this kind of dearth of ninja media right now so what’s up with that?
Grayson
I guess in a lot of ways, a big part of it is the return of the 90s. 90s was like a key point for ninja kitsch. Ninja films kind of like exploded and they’re like these like fun action things for kids with like lots of acrobatics. This was like the golden time and the worst time for ninjas because all you did was see ninjas everywhere and right away this became like these things that were just like a joke right? They’re everywhere and like they’re actually harmless because you just have like waves of ninjas coming out to like whoever and they’d all get beaten up.
Aram
Yeah.
Grayson
They’re like considered the most ineffective.
Aram
It’s a horde right.
Grayson
Ninja hordes. There’s like that inverse number law for ninjas so the fewer ninjas there are, the more powerful they are or whatever. The 90s had like, what was it? The three ninjas which was three kids that were like all like ninjas that like learned about ninja martial arts from their Japanese grandpa. There’s Surf Ninjas. This film that I’ve been trying to talk to you about for so long, which is this like, if you see the trailer or the film itself, you’d be like, how did this thing ever exists. And it’s also like one of the worst movies of all time. And it’s a film that I’ve watched probably over 10 times. I have this weird relationship to this one terrible movie, featuring Liam Neeson and Rob Schneider. But they’re actually not the main characters. They’re like the antagonist and the sidekick. And the main character is actually some Filipino American actor who’s really good at martial arts and he’s mostly stumped them. And that was like them kind of translating a lot of the aesthetic around Ninja Turtles into like a live action, where there’s like surfer lingo. They’re like cowabunga, surf’s on dude, radical and then they’re also like flipping around and like fighting each other with swords or whatever. There was like Beverly Hills —
Aram
Beverly Hills Ninja.
Grayson
Yeah, with Chris Farley. Right. Chris Farley was like a ninja master that was adopted by Asians. I mean, like, this is like just across the board. Anytime Asians came on screen, they were ninjas. And I feel like now with the return of like, actually a lot of Asian representation on the silver screen or like, mainstream media, we see the relocation of a lot of these tropes, especially with like, action choreography, becoming kind of like this thing that for a while was like really bad. It’s now starting to get really good again. I’m so glad to see that there’s a lot better like action choreography happening and cinematography. And like a lot of that was also with like things like the Marvel franchise getting big, right? Like with the model franchise getting so big, where it’s such a big action based franchise, we see a lot of like really good things happening in terms of like, action choreography. And then if action choreography gets better, of course, you’re gonna start getting martial arts involved as well. And you can’t invoke the martial arts trope without bringing up ninjas. Even when ninjas aren’t actually the thing, you still bring up, ninjas. Right? And that’s just how important this trope is to like film. If you look at for example, even like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, which is like a quintessential Chinese martial arts film. It invokes all like the Chinese martial arts tropes. Like a lot of Wuxia tropes a lot of wire action. There’s like a legendary Chinese sword and there is like, enlightenment is a big topic. Even that film had ninjas in it.
Aram
Yeah.
Grayson
Actually I have to just talk about this. Like the actual visual representation of the ninja itself is something that like does not also exist in real life. Kind of like how you can’t actually talk about ninjas in real life because they just don’t function the same way in real life the way they do on screen. Ninjas in real life never wore ninja garb. The way ninjas became to look like they were like wearing all these black robes or they’re like, all things are like wrapped up in black except for their eyes came actually from like predecessor to film, which was Kabuki theater in Japan. And so Kabuki ninja were like basically all the stage hands that would be moving around props or rearranging sets and stuff in the background and meant to not be seen by the audience while the performers are actually acting. I think actually there’s like a story or like a legend about how this became incorporated into like the ninja trope, was in one of these these Kabuki plays, they did this sort of like, big kind of like twist on the audience where one of the Kabuki hands or one of the Kabuki ninja in that play suddenly stabs one of the characters that’s being portrayed in the in that in that play. And therefore becomes like this like huge thing where like all of a sudden this thing that’s like hiding in plain sight becomes this thing that like is capable of like acting and killing and interacting with actually the story itself. And then after that, it becomes like this big trope of like the ninja.
Aram
We got an origin story there I think.
Grayson
Yeah I think that’s a really good origin story even if it’s not true, I want to say that’s where the ninja costume came from. I mean the one thing for sure that absolutely is like a one to one, if you look at like the Kabuki stagehands from like the past and like the way ninjas are dressed in movies later, it’s like the exact same. But I think like the way ninjas actually existed in like Warring States period, the Zhan Guo Ce era in Japan, they were just like, it could be anybody. They’d be dressed like a normal person and then they just like poisoned or something. So ninjas are really this thing that only exists for the screen. And they do so well there and they’re so like connected to media in this specific way.
Aram
Can you tell us your favorite martial arts movies and/or ninja movies.
Grayson
Let’s see here first with martial arts movies, I think if you go with like martial arts movies, there’s so many kinds, but there’s one type of martial arts movie I really like which is the martial arts bildungsroman. And so bildungsroman, it’s like the coming of age story, like it’s very like modernist trope, I think it’s like a very British tradition or whatever, right? But martial arts bildungsroman tradition is like somebody who like is just a normal person or is getting bullied or has some sort of problem they face and then the way to like fix other problems is to like find a master, train, go through your training montage and then at the end they defeat their enemy and they like emerge as like a fully formed being. It’s like this wonderful kind of power fantasy. In that kind of film, my three picks would be 말죽거리 잔혹사, which is this Korean film. I think the English is like, “Once Upon a Time in High School”.
Aram
Hmm.
Grayson
Nothing to do with martial arts for almost most of its entirety. And it’s about this guy who’s just like in high school, and he’s kind of like experiencing a normal high school life that has lots of like difficulties of this particular era in Korea, which is like the 70s. It was a dictatorship. It was like a really strict setting. And then, at the end, he kind of gets bullied. And then he just like, gets really into Bruce Lee and like, starts training like Bruce Lee and then beats everybody up. That’s like one of my top for sure. The other one would be 아라한 . English title’s Arahan it’s another Korean one. And it’s again, it’s just like this, this normal cop beat down cop who’s like, like a traffic cop or something. And he’s just like bullied, nobody takes him seriously. And then he basically finds these, martial arts masters. Learns under them, and gets involved in this really wild like kind of martial arts fantasy thing…
Third film? What should I pick for my third film? It’s like either Kung Fu Hustle, which is like the same kind of thing I was talking about, but he’s like, way older. Or it’s like Shaolin Soccer, which is hilarious because he’s already like a kung fu expert and now he’s like, trying to make kung fu relevant to like the real world.
Aram
Yeah.
Grayson
Or it’s God of Cookery, which I would argue is still a martial arts film.
Aram
You know, so I’m trying to give I’m trying to write down my top three, too. And I have five, so.
Grayson
I could go on. Something like that.
Aram
Yeah. So I definitely have a top two, right. And then and then three, I was like, aahh.So I think my number one is, The Blade, it’s a Tsui Hark movie from early 90s. It’s a remake of One Arm Swordsman. But it’s incredible. It uses the same storyline. But it’s just like brutal and nihilistic and the final fight scene is incredible. And they must have been all on cocaine making this movie because like, I feel like the first time I watched it, and I was watching it on VHS in my room, like on a little TV and it’s like sweating during this movie, so it’s incredible and like hard to find.
Grayson
All the battles are hard to find. Yeah, um,
Aram
My number two is The Legend of Fong Sai-yuk. So it’s like a Jet Li movie. But it’s a comedy and it’s totally playing off the fact that he played Wong Fei Hung in all the Once Upon A Time in China movies. it’s basically a spoof of Wong Fei Hung and there’s even a romance with it with a relative in this one as well. Which they make lots of jokes about so. And then other ones are, I mean Drunken Master Two I feel like is better than Drunken Master One.
Grayson
We could talk about that. Everyone thinks that. They’re wrong.
Aram
No, I think it’s completely true. And then of course you know, I don’t know I don’t remember which one of the Once Upon a Time in China movies was like the best one. I know it wasn’t the last one. It might be two but it’s been a while so I don’t remember. And then my other one would be Crippled Avengers, classic Shaw Brothers revenge movie.
Grayson
Don’t know that one.
Aram
It’s called by another title like, Five Deadly Venoms Return or something.
Grayson
Oh, yeah. Yes. Then I know that one.
Aram
So some evil dude blinds one of them, cuts off one of their hands. And so they all have to train and yeah. That movie has that movie has the best ending line of all time and this is the dubbed version, where, spoiler alert, they kill him in the end, they get revenge and then they say, “Did we get them?” And he says “Sure.” It’s the best. I love that movie.
Grayson
Oh God there’s so many more I want to add now that you said that. I’m going to resist. Oh, but oh my god. There’s like 36th Chamber of Shaolin. There’s like oh, there’s so many.
Aram
How about your top ninja movies?
Grayson
Lady Snowblood, for sure. Okay, you know that one? So Lady Snowblood is where a lot of the Kill Bill narrative comes from.
Aram
Tarantino stealing something, what, never?
Grayson
Jeez, right.
Aram
It’s an homage, it’s not stealing. Did you detect sarcasm, can you put some sarcasm on that?
Grayson
Second film for sure it’s Sword of the Stranger. Sort of the Stranger is actually an anime film and you can like call it a samurai film if you want but I’m gonna call it a ninja film. Basically the best animation for swordfighting. The story itself is not even that good, but it doesn’t matter. You’re just you’re basically watching him for like how well animated these swordfights are.
Aram
Nice
Grayson
Third film is going to be another anime and it’s definitely Ninja Scroll. And it like is so personally important to me as this film that was on like, I guess like Adult Swim. It’s like one of those like, those like forbidden films that you see like when you’re a child on like teletoon, late night teletoon. And like I only ever caught it in like snippets or parts. It took me until like basically, later stages of the internet before I could see the film from beginning to end in one sitting. Super violent, super gory, extremely graphic, has a lot of terrible sequences in it. But also is just like an amazing cult film that has a special place in my heart. It’s also like really cool because it does this like other trope of ninjas, which is like ninjas all have their special techniques. And so it’s like rock paper scissors with ninjas, and then like what techniques against what ninja? How do you this, you have to first find out what their secret technique actually is, and then how to counter it. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So yeah, those would be my three films.
Aram
All right. Well, we’ll make sure that we put those in the show notes. So Grayson, thank you for coming on Backstory and joining us. It’s been a long time coming. And I think we’ll have you back in the future too.
Grayson
Yes, friend of the show. I’ll accept being sometimes foe. I also need to add that I’m the number one fan of the show.
Aram
Oh, and we love you for it. So thanks so much.
Jen
We don’t have any top fan rewards though. Unfortunately.
Grayson
That’s okay. I’ve known this.
Aram
Well, we discussed making a t-shirt.
Grayson
Actually, I would get it.
Aram
We would just give it to you…
Jen
What if this is one of those things where we go and watch your recommendations and then we just don’t talk to you ever again.
Aram
I think you’re pretty confident in these right?
Grayson
Yes?
Aram
Backstory Podcast is presented by the Toronto Reel Asian International Film Festival. It’s written and hosted by Aram and Kelly Lui. It’s produced and edited by Jennifer Su. For more information about the show and the festival please visit us on our website at reelasian.com And check out the shownotes for a list of the films mentioned in this episode. As always you can write to us at backstory@reelasian.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Backstory Podcast 